Angela Merkel and the future of NATO under a second Trump term

There are few world leaders who can claim to have worked closely with four U.S. presidents. But Chancellor Angela Merkel can.

She is the only woman to ever lead Germany, and her 16-year tenure as chancellor made her one of the longest-serving leaders in the European Union.

Raised in Soviet-ruled East Germany, Merkel has said she never felt like the GDR was her home country. She got involved in politics in her 30s, just after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. By that point, she had already received a doctorate in quantum physics.

She discusses all of this and more in her new book, Freedom. All Things Considered host Mary Louise Kelly spoke to Merkel about feminism, Vladimir Putin, a second Donald Trump presidency, and more.

The transcript of this interview is of the simultaneous English translation of Angela Merkel’s responses, which were in German.

Interview highlights

Mary Louise Kelly: You describe a moment in 2017. You were on stage at the G20. You were asked, “Do you see yourself as a feminist?” And you had to really think about it. Why?

Angela Merkel: Well, it was a sort of preparatory meeting for the G20 meeting in Germany, in Hamburg. And I was asked that question. I had to think about that for a moment, because with classical feminism in Germany, I link up something that means that there were real activists, female activists for women’s rights — and I was not part of them. And I thought about that, and in the course of my political career, I got to the conviction that equality, the participation of women is not something that comes about automatically. And that therefore, I have to stand up and I have stood up and become active for women’s quotas, for the promotion and development of women. And therefore, in my book, in my way, I write now that I have been a feminist, because I have always advocated the equal participation of women and men in the world.

Kelly: So, if I ask you today in 2024, do you see yourself as a feminist? What’s the answer?

Merkel: Yes. In my way, I feel as a feminist. Yes.

Kelly: One of the many male leaders you have wrangled with is Vladimir Putin. And I want to spend a little time on him and what you have learned from dealing with him. You were famously afraid of dogs. Putin knows this. Would you tell me what happened in Sochi (a city in Russia) in 2017?

Merkel: Well, he knew about it. I already told him when I first saw him officially. Nevertheless, when I came to the official visit in 2006 in Moscow, he already gave me a puppy dog as a gift. And in Sochi, I saw his real dog.

Kelly: A toy puppy dog, right?

Merkel: And it was a toy. And it was an attempt to really try to sort of inspire fear into me, in a certain way. But I tried not to let him know and not to let him sense it. And while I tried to go on business as usual, and we started our talk.

Kelly: You said you tried not to show fear. Did you feel fear?

Merkel: No. At that very moment, I was not fearful. I was absolutely confident that President Putin already knew that nothing aggressive could have happened, and therefore I didn’t feel any fear.

Kelly: So, with this as a backdrop for the way that you two have interacted, you write at length in the book about Russia, about Ukraine. And I want to focus on one moment in 2014. “Little green men” have appeared to occupy Crimea, the Ukrainian peninsula. And you write, Chancellor, that you confronted Putin on the phone. Your word — that you “confronted him” — not that you called him, with your suspicion that these armed men wearing green uniforms were, in fact, Russian soldiers. And you say, he replied with a barefaced lie. What happened in that call?

Merkel: Well, already when he called me up, I was fully aware that it was most likely that these were military forces from Russia on Crimea. And that, of course, has changed my relations with Putin. We had controversies, always. We had controversial talks and discussions, always. But up until then, it was my feeling that he didn’t tell any lies. And this was a lie. And he admitted to that later on. And that has fundamentally changed our relationship because I always had to be very cautious, not knowing whether he was telling the truth or not. And that’s what I describe in the book.

Kelly: And you write, and I’m quoting: “The rule breaker was setting the terms he had to be stopped.” I’ll make the obvious point – that was 10 years ago. He hasn’t stopped. He kept going, and here we are, a decade later. With the benefit of hindsight, should Germany, should NATO have done more?

Merkel: Of course, when writing the book, I have asked myself that very question. And looking back, I think it was good and right to try everything to find a peaceful solution to the conflict between Russia and Ukraine because we see the high number of victims now. That has not been successful. And I also write in the book that, from my perspective, the COVID pandemic has made it even more difficult to find solutions to the problem, because over a very long period of time we have not been able to get in touch personally. We only had contacts via telephone. We start[ed] a war of aggression in February 2014 — Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine. The world has fundamentally changed — in particular for us, the Europeans. And now, we need to show military strength to respond to this. And in the mid-term, of course, we also need to find ways to put an end to this war, but in a way that Ukraine remains a sovereign state – a state that can make its own choices and decisions.

Kelly: I guess the big picture question is, did you underestimate Vladimir Putin?

Merkel: No, I don’t think so. For that very reason, already in 2008 in Bucharest, when there was a NATO summit, I was opposed to accepting Ukraine too quickly into NATO. In 2008, already we [had] seen that he attacked Georgia. And at the time, I believed that we should do everything that was possible to find peaceful solutions, but I have not underestimated him. I was full of concern and worries that actually we would end up in a strong conflict. And in 2022, well, we found that this was true.

Kelly: And here we are again. He ended up starting the biggest conflict in Europe since World War II. Tens of thousands of people have died. Nothing could have been done to stop it?

Merkel: Up until now, no one has found such a possibility, but I am no longer actively involved in politics. I can only write about this. And those who support Ukraine today should work, must work together with Ukraine to find solutions to put an end to this conflict. But I can no longer make any contribution because my active political time has come to an end.

Kelly: You also wrote about Donald Trump and about meeting him at the White House after he was elected president. This was 2017. And that you flew home from that meeting feeling uneasy. Why?

Merkel: Donald Trump, as president, was a person who very strongly supported his ideas. That’s natural. That’s what every president of the United States of America does, as every chancellor does. But Donald Trump, less than others, believes in the capability or the quality of a compromise. He wants to be the sole winner in any type of conflict, and he does not believe in any win-win situation where both sides benefit from a solution. And that makes the collaboration more difficult and different than other heads of government.

Kelly: He called into question NATO as a collaborative security alliance. As you know, many people are wondering whether this moment— his reelection— signals the end of the post-World War II era of American leadership in the world. Does it?

Merkel: I hope that President-elect Trump, as he did in his first term of office, now also understands that NATO does not only serve the purpose of protecting Europe, with the support of the U.S. and Canada, but that the partnership with Europe is also a benefit for the United States of America. Because together, [we are] much stronger against those [who] do not want our way of life — Russia, China. It means that there are good reasons, even for the United States of America, to want NATO to be strong. What we have understood in Europe, and in particular in Germany, is that we need to do more for our defense, which we did not do sufficiently in the past.

Kelly: So, is that a no to my question? This is not the end of U.S. leadership on the world stage?

Merkel: I do not want to believe that this is the end of U.S. leadership. I don’t believe it, and I hope not.

Kelly: I want to bring it to an end, circling back to where we began — questions about being a woman leader. Donald Trump is a man known to hurl insults at women. He uses misogynistic language. He has attacked Nancy Pelosi as evil, sick and crazy. He called Kamala Harris low IQ and stupid. He talks about grabbing women by their genitals. He’s been held liable for sexual abuse. Did you ever sense that he underestimated you because you are a woman?

Merkel: No, I did not have that feeling. I think I was the personification of Germany for him. Partly he was a bit rough towards us regarding tariffs, regarding all our economic strength as a country – we talked about that frequently. But what you have just described is something that I cannot confirm.

Kelly: So, last question. Anything you would like Americans to hear directly from you as we grapple with a new chapter in our leadership here?

Merkel: …There are many citizens of the United States of America that protect the institutions of the United States: the courts, the justice system, the free elections. That many people stand up for compromises for the fact that we can sort out disputes peacefully and inmates of good discussions, and that we get good solutions beyond political borders. Because that speechlessness, the capability to not speak anymore and to insult each other, I think this is a step backward in civilization. And I would think that many people should stand up against that and put science up against that.