Questlove confronts the ‘burden of Black genius’ in a new Sly Stone documentary

Transcript:

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I’m Terry Gross. Today, Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson is back to talk about the life and legacy of Sly Stone.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THANK YOU (FALETTINME BE MICE ELF AGIN)”)

SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE: (Singing) Thank you falettinme be mice elf agin. Thank you falettinme be mice elf agin.

GROSS: Questlove’s new documentary called “Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius)” is about the impact of Sly Stone and his band Sly and the Family Stone on music and culture. Sly got his start as a DJ and record producer in the early 1960s, formed a multiracial band with his brother, sister and other musicians, and went on to record hits like “Everyday People,” “Dance To The Music,” “Family Affair” and “Stand!”

Their music influenced Prince, George Clinton and Funkadelic, the Ohio Players, Earth, Wind & Fire and many hip-hop artists. The film also covers the problems that came along with fame and drugs that took Sly down. It premiered at Sundance last month and starts streaming on Hulu Thursday, February 13. Questlove is the co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for “The Tonight Show” with Jimmy Fallon.

If you feel as if you just heard him on our show, you did, when we talked about his other new documentary focused on Saturday Night Live’s music guests and music sketches over the past 50 years. That one’s called “Ladies & Gentlemen… 50 Years Of SNL Music.” Questlove’s 2021 documentary, “Summer Of Soul,” featuring performances from the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, won an Oscar for Best Documentary.

So let’s talk about your Sly documentary. I really love this film. I want to start with a song, and it’s their first big hit. It’s “Dance To The Music.” It’s so catchy. And I’d like you to point out what makes this song special in its moment, which was 1967 or 8?

QUESTLOVE: This is 1968.

GROSS: OK. So what makes this song so special in its moment?

QUESTLOVE: Sly will invent the alphabet for which most of pop and R&B or Black music will write from for, you know, the next 60 years. Like, we’re still writing from his dictionary to this day. And so, OK, we have a four-minute song to make. How many micro-songs can we have in this particular song? In other words, a typical Sly and the Family Stone song has a bunch of elements that will grab everybody. Like, most songs will just have one specific hook. Like, this is the chorus. This is my hook. OK, here are my lyrics. Instead, Sly will do a four-bar part that’s, like, earworm. You know, like, that’ll grab you, and then he’ll do another four bars that will grab someone else. So, you know, lyrically and melodic-wise, his formula is also the world’s funkiest nursery rhyme music.

GROSS: (Laughter).

QUESTLOVE: Look at “Everyday People,” his No.1 hit. Everyone knows “Everyday People.” “Everyday People” is basically the schoolyard version – like, the lyrics of that song, the melody of that song is basically schoolyard taunting, (vocalizing) – there is a Black one who doesn’t like the white one. And his whole thing is like if it can appeal to a kid, to a first-grader, then melodically, you have them. And rhythmically, his rhythm section, Greg Errico on drums and Larry Graham on bass, specifically Larry Graham’s right thumb, are probably the two most revolutionary aspects of Sly’s music. And that’s because Larry Graham is a bass player who used to play in bands without a drummer.

So as a result, he would have to hit his bass in a very specific way so that you could feel the rhythm, because there’s no drummer there. And of course, once he’s in the Sly system, he invents kind of a thumping, plucking thing, which I guess most of your listeners would probably be familiar with the way that the Seinfeld theme sounds – (imitating bass) – or the way that Flea plays in the Red Hot Chili Peppers, like, with his thumb. Larry Graham from Sly and the Family Stone, AKA Drake’s uncle, you know…

GROSS: Oh, really? Literally?

QUESTLOVE: Yeah, Larry Graham is – well, you know, Drake’s name is Aubrey Graham. Drake’s father is Larry Graham’s brother. Anytime I show this movie to someone under the age of 30, they’re like, wait, is that Drake’s father? I’m like, no, that’s his uncle, because they look alike. But, yeah, he revolutionized a way to play bass. And so, I mean, pretty much he just invented the idea of, like, ear candy, like, a whole bunch of micro-ideas inside of one three-minute song. And that’s the genius of Sly Stone.

GROSS: All right, thank you for that. Let’s hear “Dance To The Music.”

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “DANCE TO THE MUSIC”)

SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE: Sing. Get on up and dance to the music, get on up and dance to the music.

(Vocalizing).

(Singing) Dance to the Music, dance to the music. Dance to the Music, dance to the music.

(Singing) All we need is a drummer for people who only need a beat, yeah. I’m going to add a little guitar and make it easy to move your feet.

(Singing) I’m going to add some bottom so that the dancers just won’t hide.

(Singing) You might like to hear my organ. I said ride, Sally, ride, now. Cynthia.

What?

Jerry.

What?

(Singing) If I could hear the horns blow, Cynthia on the throne, yeah. Listen to me. Cynthia and Jerry got a message that’s saying…

All the squares go home.

(Singing) Yeah.

GROSS: So that was Sly and the Family Stone’s 1968 hit “Dance To The Music.” And the drumming is so infectious. It’s hard not to move…

QUESTLOVE: Yes.

GROSS: …When you hear that. And it’s not fancy.

QUESTLOVE: So what people don’t know is that Sly basically considered “Dance To The Music,” like, his sellout song. Sly had released this really intelligent debut album called “A Whole New Thing,” which is probably my favorite album of his entire canon. But it was way too wordy, way too smart, way too nerdy, just so ahead of its time that only a certain few latched onto it. And the rejection of that album kind of depressed Sly.

And his label said, look, you know, like, you’re doing way too much. You know, you’re doing way too much. You got to simplify it. People aren’t as smart as you are. Like, instead of you being the smartest guy in the room, be a relatable guy in the room.

QUESTLOVE: Like, people just want to dance to the music and kind of in a very bitter, scoffy way, like, he was like, all right, well, people want to dance to the music? Fine. And so he did a very sarcastic thing, and so he’s like, all right, well, people want to dance to the music? Fine. I’m going to make a song, and I’m going to teach them how to dance to my music.

And essentially, “Dance To The Music” is an instructional introduction on who we are. Hey, I play the bass. (Imitating bass guitar). I play the drums. (Imitating drum set). I play the keyboards. And literally, that’s the song. There’s no lyrics to the song. It’s just a sing-along.

But what Sly doesn’t realize is that in his very sarcastic, bitter, middle-finger type of way, he includes everybody, and people grasped to it. And so “Dance To The Music” is one of those accidental No. 1 songs that he didn’t intend on catching on. It was more of like just a bitter – here, you guys want, you know, regular food instead of this, you know, meal I cooked up for you? Fine. Take your sandwich and get out of here. And people gravitated towards it. So…

GROSS: But there’s a lot going on in that song, including, like, the kind of scatting part.

QUESTLOVE: Yeah. So what he includes is, you know, a very – you know, the drumbeat that is played there is kind of a precursor to what we will call four in the floor. And 10 years later, four in the floor will just be, you know – whereas in the ’60s, four in the floor means that the snare, the kick and the high hat are all doing (imitating drum set). You know, it’s teaching your body how to dance to it. Ten years later, they’ll take the snare and the high hat away, and it’ll just be the kick. Boom, boom, boom, boom. And that will be the disco rhythm, you know, what we call boots and cats. Boots, cats. Boots, cats. Boots and cats. So Sly will basically kind of give you the prototype of what will be the disco pulse in the late ’60s, but, you know, he’s writing the blueprint of what modern dance music will be in 10 years.

GROSS: But then he also does a lot of things that become beats for hip-hop artists later.

QUESTLOVE: Yes. So again, like, Sly believes in micro examples, like, you know, another artist will make one hook, one melody, one lyric, you know, like, just one thing, whereas Sly will probably try to cram in seven ideas at the same time. Like, Sly puts a lot of attention to harmony, which is a church thing, so that makes people feel comfortable, like, oh, they went to church because they sing harmonious.

But then Sly knows the importance of unison. Unison singing is where everyone sings in the same register. So like, you know, think of the idea of, like, when Billy Joel’s “Piano Man” comes on. You know, that’s the type of song that you hear in a bar, and, you know, everyone sings together as they hold their mug of beer and, you know, sing along. So that’s a very inclusive type of thing. So when everyone’s singing in the same key without harmony, it’s not intimidating. Like, the worst singer and the best singer can unify. So he knew the power of unison singing, which is included, and harmony singing, which is a spectacle, and type of dance rhythms and innovative bass sounds. Like, just every new idea that was unexplored in 1967, ’68 and ’69, Sly was the pioneer and the first person to do those things.

GROSS: I want to play a little bit more music, but even before that, we have to take a break. So let me reintroduce you.

If you’re just joining us, my guest is Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson. His documentary about Sly Stone is called “Sly Lives! (AKA, The Burden Of Black Genius.)” We’ll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE SONG, “I WANT TO TAKE YOU HIGHER”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get back to my interview with award-winning musician and documentary filmmaker Questlove. His new film, “Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius,)” will start streaming on Hulu February 13. That’s this Thursday.

So I want to play another Sly track and talk about it with you, ’cause I found the film so interesting in really pointing to specifically what makes Sly’s music so interesting and catchy and why so many people kind of, as you put it, use his vocabulary. So I want to play “Everyday people,” ’cause this has significance in a lot of ways. I mean, Sly’s band is made up of Black and white musicians, male and female musicians. And “Everyday People” speaks to inclusivity. So can you talk about that a little bit in terms of the types of music that are drawn on in Sly’s music and the kind of inclusivity that he represented within the band and in some of his lyrics?

QUESTLOVE: Sly’s role – Vernon Reid of Living Colour kind of painted that, you know, this marks the first time that a Black singer is kind of stepping out of the roles that we were traditionally playing, you know, before Sly was like, you were strictly singing about love songs, in particular about relationships. You really weren’t giving any commentary about everyday life or things that are relatable in the present to the, you know, audience that you’re serving. It’s almost like music before Sly was almost kind of a fantasy, if you will. Like, a means to escape your present situation.

And Sly kind of uses his music as a means to sell humanity, and “Everyday People” is a great example, where he’s essentially saying that, hey, like, I breathe air like you do. I bleed like you do. I – there’s some things that we have in common. There’s some things that we don’t have in common. But we’re all the same person. And sometimes, especially, you know, during that period, during the Civil Rights period, especially with that time in which Martin Luther King has died and Malcolm X has died, Medgar Evers has died and the Kennedys died, and kind of the dream of the Civil Rights period died, that kind of messaging at the time seemed very necessary for – you know, there was questions in the air like, what do we do now?

So Sly kind of accidentally inserts himself in the leadership position, kind of in the name of just trying to find relatable content to his lyrics because, you know, a lot of his music is very self-confessional and very relatable, kind of in a way that, you know, Dylan was also affecting music, you know, with his songs at the time. And I guess Sly wound up being the unofficial spokesperson (laughter) for Black people.

GROSS: Well, let’s hear “Everyday People,” and this is from 1969.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “EVERYDAY PEOPLE”)

SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE: (Singing) Sometimes I’m right, but I can be wrong. My own beliefs are in my song. The butcher, the baker, the drummer and then – makes no difference what group I’m in. I am everyday people. Ooh, sha-sha. Ooh, sha-sha.

(Singing) We got to live together. I am no better and neither are you. We are the same whatever we do. You love me, you hate me, you know me and then you can’t figure out the bag I’m in. I am everyday people, yeah. Ooh, sha-sha. Ooh, sha-sha. We got to live together.

GROSS: So that was “Everyday People,” which as you pointed out has a kind of nursery rhyme part to it.

QUESTLOVE: Yeah. (Vocalizing).

GROSS: Yeah. And that has, like I said, the message of inclusivity and togetherness. But as someone in your documentary points out, that alienated a lot of Black listeners in the sense that, you know, police were beating up Black people, which, of course, you could say today as well. But it was a very – and also, like, Black power was becoming a thing.

QUESTLOVE: It was risky. Yeah, it was risky because, again, this song is released right on the edge of the razor. Like, there’s always a time in American history – and, you know, today is no different. There’s always a time in American history where we’re just right on the edge, right on the precipice of, like, you know, a kind of explosive end result, you know? And for someone to sort of come in waving a proverbial, like, white flag, that’s a risky thing because, you know, one, we do see the evidence of the abuse that’s given. But it’s also like, who’s going to be the first person to kind of come to half court, you know, to the 50-yard line? Who’s going to cross the aisle and, you know, start a kumbaya moment and sort of dismantles whatever conflicts that we have?

And that’s the role that Sly’s music played, whereas, you know, the messaging of his music was always encouraging, always, you know, a cheerleader of justice and a cheerleader of positivity. And unfortunately, even though the music spoke of that optimism, inside, he was sort of falling apart at the seams because there’s a pressure of – or a burden, which is why we call it the burden of Black genius. There’s a burden when one puts themselves in that position where they often have to come up with the solutions or the answers to why society is the way it is.

GROSS: My guest is Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson. His film, “Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius),” will start streaming on Hulu Thursday. We’ll talk more after a break. I’m Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “I WANT TO TAKE YOU HIGHER”)

SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE: (Singing) I want to, I want to, I want to take you higher. I’m going to take you higher. Baby, baby, baby, light my fire. I want to take you higher.

(SOUNDBITE OF SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE’S “NEVER DO YOUR WOMAN WRONG (INSTRUMENTAL)”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR.

GROSS: I’m Terry Gross. Let’s get back to my interview with Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson, co-founder, leader and drummer of The Roots, which is, among other things, the house band for “The Tonight Show” with Jimmy Fallon. Questlove’s new documentary, “Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius),” is about Sly Stone and his band, Sly and the Family Stone. It will start streaming on Hulu Thursday. When we left off, we were talking about Sly and the Family Stone’s fourth album, “Stand!” It was released in April of 1969 and featured their hit song, “Everyday People.”

Well, you know, on the same album as “Everyday People,” his message about inclusivity, he has the song “Stand!” That’s a message to take a stand, stand up for your rights, you know, demand your rights. And that resonated a lot within the Black community.

QUESTLOVE: Stand proud. Yes.

GROSS: Yeah, so talk a little bit about that song and why you think that song is important musically and in terms of the message of the lyrics.

QUESTLOVE: So basically, Sly makes the song “Stand!” And he completes the song, and he has kind of a test pressing demo made of it. And, you know, he takes this record demo to Whiskey a Go Go in Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard, which was, you know, the night club of the moment. And he gives the DJ the 45 to play. And the DJ puts it on. You know, it’s like a proto disco in 1969, where teenagers are dancing in the club. And, you know, the teenagers are dancing, and the song ends.

And Sly was, like, really disappointed. He’s like, man, like, that song didn’t hit the way I wanted it to. And at the time, the girl that he was with was like, well, you know, you didn’t put a get down part in. And he’s like, what do you mean? She’s like, you got to have a part in the song that just, like, wakes people up and makes them want to, like, really get down. And he’s like, oh, a get down part.

And so he leaves the club that night. And around 1 in the morning, he calls the band together and says, hey, we need to add something to the song that really just wakes it up out of nowhere. So kind of in the last minute and 15 seconds of the song, this tension-building kind of structure of the lyrics comes to this feverish, like, climatic end where the song totally changes from what it was to something totally, completely different. And he creates a get down part, what we will now know as a breakbeat, you know, the part of the song that sparks magic, that makes people really want to dance and get down to it.

And I kind of think that was Sly’s nod to the Black community, you know, because by that point, Sly was such a pop hit, but he really didn’t have much numbers on the board for his Black audience. Like, when he first came out the box, his white audience immediately latched onto him. And sometimes, I know with certain Black artists, even though it’s unspoken, one of the burdens of Black genius is sometimes, like, the burden of being white people’s favorite Black person. You know, that’s often, like, kind of a mark of shame. Like, oh, man, I got to get right with my people first before the rest of the world loves me. So I almost feel as though, in a sort of code switch way, he wanted to add a part to that song that really made Black people say, oh, OK. He’s still down with us. You know, so he adds this really funky part at the end that really solidifies his genius.

GROSS: So let’s play that transitional part. So we hear some of the main song, and then we hear what it transitions to at the end.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “STAND!”)

SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE: (Singing) Stand. They will try to make you crawl, and they know what you’re saying makes sense and all. Stand. Don’t you know that you are free? Well, at least in your mind, if you want to be. Everybody stand, stand.

(Singing) Stand, na-na-na-na, na-na-na-na, na-na. Stand, na-na-na-na, na-na-na-na, na-na. Stand, na-na-na-na, na-na-na-na, na-na. Stand, na-na-na-na, na-na-na-na, na-na.

GROSS: So that was “Stand!” which is on the same 1969 album as “Everyday People.” And those two songs have a kind of contrast, like I said before, inclusivity and, like, stand up for your rights. And at this time, it’s a catchy song, but it’s also, like, a message song. And the Panthers, the Black Panthers, who are very active at this time – it’s 1969 – become really interested in Sly. And there’s this really interesting part of the movie that talks about how the Panthers said, you need to join our group or you need to donate $100,000 to our group, to which Sly responds, give me a reason.

QUESTLOVE: Yeah. I mean, the thing is, is that one of the burdens, especially with Black success, is that, you know, you might lose yourself. And oftentimes, like – look, I’ll be very honest with you. Even though my experience with “Summer Of Soul” was one of the most magical, transformative moments of my life, there were many a time where – you know, besides the Oscar, like, there were, like, 40 other awards that I won also in the circuit of film festivals. And, you know, by the 20th, I would tell my manager, Zarah – I’m like, man, like, can we pull out of some of these things? Like, there’s a fear of winning because if you’re too successful, then you’re singled out. And being singled out for positive reasons or negative reasons is such a nightmare for most Black people. And, yes, in this case…

GROSS: Why?

QUESTLOVE: Because you’re going to be separated. Like, for a lot of Black people, you come up in a neighborhood. You know your next-door neighbors. You spend the night at your cousin’s house. And then in a snap (snapping), suddenly, you know, I’m Macaulay Culkin’s character staying at the Four Seasons hotel, like, by myself in the lap of luxury. And that’s an alienating feeling because you can’t take everyone with you. You can’t save everyone.

You know, I grew up in a neighborhood in which I had – between the two neighbor, you know, my grandmother’s house and my house, like, I had 30 plus friends. And now, it’s just four of us. Like, I’m 1 of 4 who’s not dead or in jail. And so there’s a constant, like, why me? Why was I chosen? My cousin was just as smart as I was, and that person plays drums better than me. Like, they should have been in this position. Like, there’s an impostor syndrome thing that happens and just a feeling of guilt that one feels.

And, you know, the Panthers sort of approached Sly and was like, OK, well, you know, you’re talking about these political subjects that we’re about, so we want you to be our leader and fund our movement. And Sly fundamentally doesn’t necessarily agree. Like, he’s not that revolutionary, even though he has the ability to channel in the feeling of a revolutionary. So what winds up happening is for every time the pressure is on Sly to prove his Blackness, the more success he gets, he just winds up – his only answer is to create Blacker music.

So, you know, the pressure of “Everyday People” leads to “Stand!” and then the pressure of “Stand!” leads to basically the ribbon cutting of funk. The very first funk song, which is “Thank You For Letting Me Be Myself Again.” You know, it’s kind of like this brilliant deflection thing, like, his version of hey, guys, what’s that over there? You know, and they turn around and then, like, he’s gone. Instead, he’ll just say, here’s an even funkier song to prove I’m super Black, you know, and that’s kind of how he gets out of these situations. He has to performatively become more Blacker in his music, you know?

And to the point where the pinnacle of it will be his fifth album, which is “There’s A Riot Goin’ On,” which every critic salivates over that album, like, oh, my God, it’s the most amazing funk album ever. Yes, it’s the very first funk album, but for me, it’s probably 41 of the most painful documented minutes in a creator’s life. Like, this is clearly someone who is an unwilling participant in his journey. Like, I hear someone crying for help, but because the music is so awesome and so mind-blowing, you know, we wind up fetishizing his art, and you don’t see the pain of it or the fact that Black pain is so beautiful. Like, the sound of Aretha Franklin’s voice, like, yeah, we’ll say, like, it’s so soulful. So but no, Aretha Franklin’s voice is the sound of a woman who never had a relationship with her own mother, whose mother rejected her. And when you hear her beautiful voice, that’s the sound of pain. So somehow, you know, a lot of Black music that we love – you know, the sound of Ray Charles’ voice, the sound of Stevie Wonder’s voice, the sound – what we’re really getting off on is their pain, which I’m guilty of it, but, you know, it’s problematic, and it’s also a pleasure, you know, and I feel guilty that sometimes I get off on someone’s pain.

GROSS: Yeah, but isn’t that because we all have pain and we like music that understands pain and puts our pain into something beautiful?

QUESTLOVE: We do, but see, here’s the problem with that, though. One of my mentors who passed away, writer Greg Tate, he wrote a book called “Everything But The Burden.” And what that essentially means is that oftentimes, Black art, Black pain, is just so beautiful that oftentimes, you know, we’ll take everything, we’ll take the dancing, we’ll take the fashion, we’ll take the lingo, we’ll take the singing, we’ll take everything but the burden and the pain that it takes to reach that level of art.

For me, one of the best examples – every time I DJ, there’s a song by James Brown called “It’s A New Day.” And probably 3 minutes into that song, James Brown does a level of screaming that is beyond just ad libs. Like every time I DJ this song, like, it’s so awesomely danceable and funky, but also, like, so painful to hear because, you know, James Brown is a person that was an orphan that grew up in a brothel. His mother gave him away. His father gave him away. So that feeling of rejection he had all of his life, all that pain is coming out in this song. And, you know, that’s kind of the thing. It’s everything but the burden. That’s kind of the empathetic way that we wanted to paint this story that – you know, ’cause people often just say, like, wow, he had everything and he was a genius and then he chose drugs. And for me…

GROSS: Yeah. I hear you. Yeah.

QUESTLOVE: Yeah. For me, it’s like, what happened in his life that made him want to choose drugs? And that’s the question that no one could answer. Like, especially, like, when I interviewed Clive Davis, and Clive has a history of – you know, there’s Janice Joplin, there’s Whitney Houston, there’s Sly Stone, there’s, you know, all these artists that have sort of famously succumbed to darker demons. And, you know, I kind of asked him, like, well, you know, I think it’s more than just like, oh, he was hanging with the wrong crowd and, you know, chose cocaine instead. And when I asked him, like, what circumstances do you think that he was going through during that period he was on your label that you might not have been aware of – and this is definitely not just a story of Sly Stone. This is a story of anyone I’ve ever worked with. This is the story of Frank Ocean or Lauryn Hill or Dave Chappelle, Kanye West, like, anyone who’s ever been mired in trouble or anyone you ever ask, like, why are they doing this? Like, everyone goes through this.

GROSS: My guest is Questlove. His new documentary about Sly Stone is called “Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius).” It’ll start streaming on Hulu Thursday. We’ll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE’S “MY BRAIN (ZIG-ZAG)”)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get back to my interview with Questlove. His documentary about Sly and the Family Stone is called “Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius).” It’ll start streaming on Hulu Thursday.

So to illustrate the point that you were making about pain in music, let’s listen to “Family Affair,” which is a song about, you know, kind of what you’re saying, that one person does really well and other people in the family don’t. And there’s a lot of pain within the family. So this is “Family Affair,” Sly and the Family Stone.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “FAMILY AFFAIR”)

SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE: (Singing) It’s a family affair. It’s a family affair. It’s a family affair. It’s a family affair.

(Singing) One child grows up to be somebody that just loves to learn. And another child grows up to be somebody you’d just love to burn. Mom loves the both of them. You see, it’s in the blood. Both kids are good to mom. Blood’s thicker than the mud. It’s a family affair.

(Singing) It’s a family affair.

(Singing) It’s a family affair.

(Singing) It’s a family affair.

(Singing) Over there. What of it?

GROSS: That was Sly and the Family Stone. My guest is Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson. His new documentary about the group, and about Sly in particular, is called “Sly Lives! (The Burden Of Black Genius).”

So, you know, we talked about this a little bit. The subtitle of your film is “The Burden Of Black Genius.” And your theory is that for Black artists in America, success can be more terrifying than failure for the reasons that you described. What do you think the burden included for Sly? Like, what were the personal burdens in his life, in addition to being singled out and how singled out can mean removed from your own people? What are some of the personal burdens that you think he also shouldered?

QUESTLOVE: One, too – the pressure of writing game-changing music. You know, Sly is the first person to use a drum machine. Sly is of – kind of the pioneer of the bedroom, do-it-all-yourself musician. You know, there’s the pressure of feeding the machine, of writing the hits, of keep winning. You know, there’s the idea of what you are versus who you really are. You know, as the generations go on, like, Sly was unable to do that.

And when he drops the baton, there was someone in the wings waiting to pick that baton up. And at the time, that person was 12 years old, and that person’s name was Michael Joseph Jackson. So Michael Jackson will wind up picking up the baton of what should have happened to Sly. And then 10 years later, in 1982, Michael himself will go through that same process of being the chosen one, being the God, being the unifier, being the center of attention, and then, suddenly, he’ll just wind up on a – kind of a hamster wheel of chasing perfection. And this happens to everyone, this – Prince, Whitney Houston. It’s that level of pressure that one puts on themselves, you know? And there’s just no space for humanity in entertainment, but especially in Black entertainment. So I feel as though now is the time to have that conversation because I feel as though, especially with Black people, we are now in a space where we are open to things like the discussion of therapy and mental health.

GROSS: I want to pick up on that because I think that genius is often accompanied by, or fueled by, some kind of mental health issue – whether it’s OCD or bipolar disorder – that there’s something within you where you are wired to, not necessarily be happy, but you are wired to do music or painting or writing or – and, like, you kind of have no choice. But – and there’s even been, like, studies about this, you know, that you can have some kind of mental health issue, and that is often, you know, self-medicated with drugs. And I’m not trying to deny any of the things you’ve said about how Black artists have a burden that white artists don’t. So I’m just trying to add…

QUESTLOVE: Well, yeah, this became a serious point of contention with, you know, kind of me and the Disney organization and, you know, the idea of, like, well, is this the burden of genius or the burden of Black genius? The difference between Black genius and regular genius is that, you know, most white artists aren’t – their feet aren’t going to be held to the fire of, you know, remind yourself that you’re Italian, you know? Make sure you keep up your German roots and…

GROSS: Put some Yiddish in that song (laughter).

QUESTLOVE: Yeah, exactly. Like, there’s…

GROSS: Yeah.

QUESTLOVE: When you have Black success, nine times out of 10, you’re going to go in the history books because it’s just so pioneering. And you better make us proud, and you better not mess up or embarrass us. I think right now, we’re just starting to have that conversation about how do we feel inside? – you know, our humanity.

GROSS: You talked, the last time you were on our show, about the importance of vulnerability…

QUESTLOVE: Yeah.

GROSS: …And how it’s time to talk about vulnerability and express vulnerability.

QUESTLOVE: So these next six projects I’m working on, this will be the common denominator. I touch on this in the Earth, Wind & Fire doc, which comes out in September. And with Sly, it’s also about humanity and vulnerability, which, you know, is sometimes just way too risky to figure out will you get penalized if you are oversharing too much because some people might not be able to handle it?

GROSS: My guest is Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson. His new documentary, “Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius),” will start streaming on Hulu Thursday, February 13. We’ll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

This is FRESH AIR. Let’s get back to my interview with award-winning musician and documentary filmmaker Questlove. His new film, “Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius),” will start streaming on Hulu February 13. That’s this Thursday.

You talked to Sly, and I don’t know how much he participated in the movie, but how would you describe him now? He’s in his early 80s. He’s clean. He hasn’t used drugs. And I’m not sure how long, but he’s off of them as far as…

QUESTLOVE: Yeah.

GROSS: …As far as I can tell so…

QUESTLOVE: …He’s…

GROSS: …Yeah.

QUESTLOVE: …Been clean for about – kind of close to a decade. And that’s why we called it “Sly Lives!” Like, the irony of all this is that all of his disciples unfortunately didn’t make it, but yet Sly is still with us. And for me, like, my favorite part of that film is when his kids describe what his life is like now. Like, I love the fact that Novena Carmel from KCRW in LA says that, you know, like, he loves pizza with pineapples on it. He loves, you know, watching old Westerns. He loves driving new cars. The first time I saw Sly drive he was driving a very unusual – I don’t know what kind of car that was. But just the fact that he has an everyday normal existence. Like, he plays with his grandkids. Like, he’s just a normal guy, which, to me, that speaks volumes. Like, to be normal, to be human – you know? – not to be the scary Black guy, not to be the over sexualized person, but just a normal, relatable, everyday person. To me, that’s the dream.

GROSS: Ahmir, it’s been so great to talk with you. And I just think all these projects you’re doing, it’s really remarkable. I really look forward to the Earth, Wind & Fire movie now.

QUESTLOVE: Well, whenever I do a press run, this is one of my favorite highlights. And, you know, I’m so glad that for the last 20-plus years, like, this has sort of been like the springboard for my projects coming out, and I thank you for receiving it.

GROSS: Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson’s new film is called “Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius).” It will start streaming on Hulu Thursday.

Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Sebastian Stan. He’s nominated for an Oscar for his performance as Donald Trump in the film “The Apprentice,” and he won a Golden Globe last month for his role in “A Different Man.” We’ll talk about his early childhood in Communist Romania and his path to the U.S. and acting, including his performances in multiple Marvel movies. I hope you’ll join us.

To keep up with what’s on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE SONG, “IF YOU WANT ME TO STAY”)

GROSS: FRESH AIR’s executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tanya Mosley. I’m Terry Gross.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “IF YOU WANT ME TO STAY”)

SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE: (Singing) If you want me to stay, I’ll be around today to be available for you to see. But I am about to go, and then you’ll know for me to stay here, I got to be me. You’ll never be in doubt. That’s what it’s all about. You can’t take me for granted and smile. Count the days I’m gone. Forget reachin’ me by phone, because I promise I’ll be gone for a while. And when you see me again, I hope that you have been the kind of person that you really are now. You got to get it straight. How could I ever be late when you’re my woman taking up my time?