Former head of Social Security says Elon Musk and DOGE are wrong about the agency
The Trump administration says big changes are coming to Social Security as it works to weed out alleged fraud.
But Michael Astrue, a former commissioner of the Social Security Administration (SSA), warns that the Trump administration’s efforts are ill-informed. Elon Musk, a close adviser to President Trump and his largest donor, has been combing through the administration’s records under the Department of Governmental Efficiency (DOGE) .
“If you want to go in and put in efficiencies to bring down the size of the agency, you can do that. But there’s a smart way to do it and there’s a stupid way to do it,” Astrue said. “And we’re doing it the way that 22-year-old frat boys that have never seen the system think is a good idea, and that’s a mistake.”
Astrue warns that DOGE workers aren’t familiar with Social Security’s functionalities or Common Business Oriented Language (COBOL), a 60-year-old code used by the SSA that some of the DOGE workers may not have worked with before. Astrue says he doesn’t condemn Musk and his team for not knowing the code, but he does fault Musk for not admitting to error.
“Instead of admitting error, he doubled down and had the president of the United States make that claim. And that’s a real disservice to President Trump.”
Musk claims the Social Security Administration is practicing “extreme levels of fraud.” However, he has failed to provide proof of fraud, and his claims have been debunked by the agency’s inspector general and its acting commissioner, Leland Dudek.
Social Security distributes benefits to more than 70 million people, and if the Trump administration gets its way, thousands of staff members will be laid off, offices will close around the country, and tougher policies for Social Security recipients will be enforced — including in-person identity checks, which could make it difficult for seniors and disabled people to access critical benefits.
A spokesperson for the Social Security Administration told NPR it is focused on “identifying efficiencies and reducing costs.”
Astrue, who served as the commissioner of Social Security for six years under president’s George W. Bush and Barack Obama, joined NPR’s Michel Martin to discuss the Trump administration’s plans to reform the Social Security Administration.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Michel Martin: Based on your experience, is the Social Security Administration rife with fraud? Elon Musk keeps insisting that it is.
Michael Astrue: No, it’s not. And the big claims are just flat out wrong.
It’s just a product of the fact that they sent in a group of 20-year-olds with laptops who are used to seeing certain types of code. They went in without the proper authorities and didn’t understand it.
Martin: They didn’t understand what they were seeing.
Astrue: No.
Martin: They drew a conclusion based on their own lack of understanding of how the agency actually worked.
Astrue: You can’t fault them for that because they haven’t ever seen COBOL code before. But you can fault Elon Musk because, instead of admitting error, he doubled down and had the president of the United States make that claim. And that’s a real disservice to President Trump.
Martin: Are you concerned that these proposed changes, like requiring people to verify their identities in person, could cause people to lose benefits that they actually should get?
Astrue: Yes, it’s at least going to cause delays, and in some cases they may just not get it at all. And to put in this requirement at the same time that you’re cutting back staff and office space dramatically is going to compound what is already a big problem.
Martin: Where would you look for efficiencies and cost reductions if you were still in charge?
Astrue: Well, the back office operations, a lot of the more arcane things are very labor intensive. It’s very slow and it’s fairly error prone. So, a lot of that could be done with artificial intelligence. The agency also runs the largest system of justice in the world. And under agency rules now, most people are submitting medical records of 500 to 1,000 pages. For the judges in the staff to get through those is hard. We tried to automate that on my watch and the technology wasn’t ready. I think the technology is ready now, and I think if they could do that well, it would be efficient and it would be a better service for the public.
Martin: Tomorrow, the Senate Finance Committee will question Trump’s nominee to lead Social Security. His name is Frank Bisignano. He is the CEO of Fiserv. That’s a financial tech company. He says he’s, “fundamentally a DOGE person.” And I take that to mean that he aligns himself with Elon Musk’s push to remake the government.
But what are you looking for from the new commissioner?
Astrue: We need a perspective other than the DOGE perspective. I’m all for cutting waste, I’m all for efficiencies. And if you look back at the productivity increases in my six years, they were substantial. They were well above anything before or since. And we use those to reduce the disability backlog.
If you want to go in and put in efficiencies to bring down the size of the agency, you can do that. But there’s a smart way to do it and there’s a stupid way to do it. And we’re doing it the way that 22-year-old frat boys that have never seen the system think is a good idea, and that’s a mistake.
Obed Manuel and Kristian Monroe edited the digital copy.
Transcript:
MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
The Trump administration says big changes are coming to Social Security. The agency that distributes benefits to more than 70 million people may see cuts to staff and field offices closed. And recipients could encounter tougher identity checks as Elon Musk, the president’s close adviser and largest donor, claims Social Security is rife with fraud. A spokesperson for Social Security told NPR it is focused on, quote, “identifying efficiencies and reducing costs,” unquote. But others who follow the agency say it is already underfunded, and they dispute allegations of widespread fraud. We wanted to ask somebody who knows how the agency functions, so we called Michael Astrue. He led Social Security for six years under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, and he’s with us now. Good morning, Mr. Astrue.
MICHAEL ASTRUE: Good morning. Nice to be back.
MARTIN: Good to have you. So based on your experience, is the Social Security Administration rife with fraud? Elon Musk keeps insisting that it is.
ASTRUE: No, it’s not, and the big claims are just flat-out wrong and – that the $2.5 billion being paid to people over the age of 100 is just simply not true. The agency has been very careful with that. It’s been audited by the IG and the GAO. There are about 50,000 people getting those benefits, and there are more that are that age that are not getting benefits. So it’s a product of the fact that they sent in a group of 20-year-olds with laptops who are used to seeing certain types of code. They went in, without the proper authorities, to what we call the Numident and didn’t understand it.
MARTIN: They didn’t understand what they were seeing?
ASTRUE: No. No. And that…
MARTIN: So they drew a conclusion based on their own lack of understanding…
ASTRUE: Yes. That’s right.
MARTIN: …Of what this – how the agencies actually worked.
ASTRUE: And you can’t fault them for that ’cause they haven’t ever seen COBOL code before. But you can fault Elon Musk because instead of admitting error, he doubled down and had the president of the United States make that claim. And that’s a real disservice to President Trump.
MARTIN: Are you concerned that these proposed changes, like requiring people to verify their identities in person, could cause people to lose benefits that they actually should get?
ASTRUE: Yes. It’s at least going to cause delays, and in some cases, they may just not get it at all. And to put in this requirement at the same time that you’re cutting back staff and office space dramatically is going to compound what is already a big problem. I mean, for nine of last 12 years, the agency has not had a confirmed commissioner. Things have gone backwards in terms of service delivery. There are a lot of things they need to do to bring it back to the way that it should be.
Now, instead, we’ve got these massive layoffs. We’ve got these orders to do things to cut down on fraud where they don’t understand the system, they don’t understand the consequences, and it’s making it worse. And they’re going to drive a lot of people who are doing very efficient phone calls – to switch, for instance, bank accounts for direct deposit – force them all into offices, where there are already enormous lines. And you can’t get through to the 800 number to make an appointment to get in. So these people are going to get long delays in getting paid. And, you know, they may suffer.
I mean, I went to my local office 10 days ago, freezing cold. I waited in the car. But there was a line of – I don’t know – about 15 people out there in 20-degree weather just waiting to get in, in the hope that they’d be able to see someone.
MARTIN: Where would you look for efficiencies and cost reductions if you were still in charge?
ASTRUE: Well, the back-office operations, a lot of the more arcane thing is very labor-intensive. It’s very slow, and it’s fairly error-prone. So a lot of that could be done with artificial intelligence. You’re also running – the agency also runs the largest system of justice in the world. And under agency rules now, most people are submitting medical records of 500 to 1,000 pages. So for the judges and the staff to get through those is hard. Now, we tried to automate that on my watch, and the technology wasn’t ready. I think the technology is ready now, and I think if they could do that well, it would be efficient and it would be a better service for the public.
MARTIN: So tomorrow, the Senate Finance Committee will question Trump’s nominee to lead Social Security. His name is Frank Bisignano. He is the CEO of Fiserv. That’s a financial tech company. He says he’s, quote, “fundamentally a DOGE person.” And I take that to mean that he aligns himself with Elon Musk’s push to remake the government. But what are you looking for from the new commissioner?
ASTRUE: Well, I think we need a perspective other than the DOGE perspective. I mean, I’m all for cutting waste. I’m all for efficiencies. And if you look back at the productivity increases in my six years, they were substantial. They were well above anything before or since, and we used those to reduce the disability backlog. If you want to go in and put in efficiencies to bring down the size of the agency, you can do that. But there’s a smart way to do it, and there’s a stupid way to do it. And we’re doing it the way that 22-year-old frat boys that have never seen this system think is a good idea, and that’s a mistake.
MARTIN: OK, some blunt words there.
ASTRUE: Yeah.
MARTIN: That is Michael Astrue. He’s a former commissioner of Social Security. He served under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama. Mr. Astrue, thanks so much for joining us.
ASTRUE: Thank you.
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